Rob Bell is the devil?

Intro:

There are a lot of people bringing about division and strife in the church by their zealous and self righteous attempts to point out heresy. Unfortunately, most o these finger-pointers are either: missing the point, or stressing on minor issues which are fueled with speculation. Yes, there is heresy out there. Yes, there are false teachers. –However, there are also sincere believers who love Jesus who are being nailed improperly. One of the so-called witches that is often being burned in effigy, (especially amongst my Calvary Chapel brothers), is Rob Bell. I’ve read Velvet Elvis twice, and don’t get where these crazy accusations are coming from.

I’m going to use Velvet Elvis as an illustration. If there is one common book that all the so called “discernment” ministers hate, it’s Velvet Elvis. I’m going to use Rob Bell’s confession as a rule by which I judge many of these topics:

“I affirm the historic Christian faith, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more. I’m part of it, and I want to pass it on to the next generation. I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is Lord and that God has plans to restore everything” (p. 27).

If I see something that appears to contradict what Rob is saying about himself, I’m going to have to look at it from a different angle, so it falls in line with his own confession. This is how we look at scripture. It’s a good rule to use when we look at other literature too. It’s also good to draw the meaning out… discern the intent and meaning of the author. In Hermeneutics, we call this “exegesis”. The opposite, obviously, is putting meaning in, (isogesis). One is good. It’s inductive in its reasoning. The other leans toward “deductive” reasoning, which draws a conclusion by accepting voids in the logic.

It’s easy to see why people get the wrong impression of Rob. His method of communication has two factors that are disregarded by most. First off: He builds his lesson, one point at a time. The first point and the second point might not make much sense, but they are building blocks leading up to the point where he “brings it all together”. His new book: “Jesus Wants To Save Christians” is written, in its entirety, in this fashion. The second thing we need to take note of, is his provocative manner. He says thing that sound wrong, and he obviously does it intentionally. He wants to get our attention and provoke our thinking. If we read the provocative comment, and hold our peace for a few minutes, we’ll see how it too is generally a building block which is established to help emphasize a point.

I think some of his illustrations, and even some of his points are unnecessary. I think many of them provoke many people to jump to conclusions that are not fruitful or consistent to the intent of the book. It’s his first book. Even after his first book, he’s written more books than me.

I found a detailed critique of the book by Mark Edward Sohmer (www.mark.sohmer.net) -thanks for doing all this work Mark. I mean no dis-respect, but my incredulous responses will seem dis-respectful I’m sure. If you’re going to write strong accusations, it goes to say that you’ll be inclined to have a few come back at you.

It’s found on the web in PDF here: http://www.sohmer.net/Velvet_Elvis.pdf -I’m going to use it as my outline, because it draws conclusions that are consistent with most watch dog groups. (Oakland, Lighthouse Trails, etc)

This is long. Excerpts from the critic’s paper are in normal text. My words are in bold print.

Low View of Scripture:

“I’m part of a community, a movement of people who have been living, exploring, discussing, sharing, and experiencing new understandings of Christian faith” (p.14).

The critics accuse Bell of claiming that the Bible is not enough, and that we are unable to understand the faith that is so clearly describes. Anyone who has studied the Bible knows that it is a profound, living and powerful Word that continues to reveal itself to us as we grow more and more. We also see Paul’s confession “now we know in part, but then we shall know as we also are known.”. If we couple the limits of our mind with the unlimited wisdom of the Word, then obviously, we who are not perfect, will always have more to learn about God.

“The Christian faith is mysterious to the core. It is about things and beings that ultimately can’t be put into words. Language fails. And if we do definitively put God into words, we have at that very moment made God something God is not” (p. 32).

Please notice what Rob is saying here. He calls the faith “mysterious” and says it “can’t be put into words.” This is wrong because God has given us a divine revelation using words.

Again, the critic assumes that we already know everything. The critic assumes that our faith is something that is simple and understood on one layer. I know a lot of different Christians who have a lot of different definitions for their faith. Why would so many people think so many different things if it was so easy to discern the divine revelation? We are by nature, paradigmatic. Once we consider something true, it’s very hard for us to consider anything else. Most Christians are paradigmatic and are offended at the challenge to think beyond their current understanding of God/His Word. I for one, want to learn more and understand more. I for one, want to correct any thinking that is wrong. This is the core challenge of this book, and because most people are stubbornly paradigmatic, this is why people are quick to rob the intent of Rob and ascribe their own interpretations.

“This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that ‘Scripture alone’ is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is. So when I affirm the Bible as God’s Word, in the same breath I have to affirm the when those people voted, God was somehow present, guiding them to do what they did. When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true” (pp. 67-68).

Please note that Rob calls “Scripture alone” a “problem.” He says, “When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true.” He also makes the claim that the Bible we have is only so because a group of people voted a certain way, as if it could have played out that had the vote happened on a different day, maybe there’d be no book of Matthew, and the Didache would be considered canon. Rob demonstrates a very low view of the sovereignty of God and a high view of the power of man, two errors that continually show up throughout his book.

Let’s not read this small part of the page, and sip the rest. Rob is talking about the principle of “binding and loosing”.. or, simply.. approving and disapproving. When he speaks of the Bible, we can’t just approve the Bible, as the Bible alone… we also have to have faith that God used and inspired the individuals who chose these 66 books and deemed them as being inspired. Rob affirms, w/a high view of scripture, that this is the Word of God, but he goes on to say, that God used men back around 300 AD to decide which books were and which books were not inspired. By affirming the process, he establishes a greater recognition of the Word, than by a shallow claim of: “The Bible is Inspired”. Oh really? It’s inspired? Well what about those guys who sorted through all the letters and just chose these 66? What about the books that got rejected? -What about it? -“at some point we have to have faith. Faith the God is capable of guiding people….. that the same Spirit who guided Paul and Peter and those people in a room in the 300’s is still with us today.” The critic failed to read on and totally missed the point.

In Velvet Elvis, Rob tells the story of a female leader in his church who told him that she had been studying the Bible recently to try to find out what God teaches about a certain matter. In response to this woman, Rob said:

“Now please understand that this way of thinking is prevalent in a lot of Christian churches… But this view of the Bible is warped and toxic, to say the least. The assumption is that there is a way to read the Bible that is agenda- and perspective-free. As if all these other people have their opinion and biases, but some are able to just read it for what it says” (pp. 53-54).

Rob says that it is “warped and toxic” to think that we can understand the original intent of the Bible. Rob believes that we always see Scripture through the lens of our “opinion and biases.”

This is an illustration in an argument that Rob is building concerning the way we are so prone to interject our opinions into the Bible, and come out on the other side with an interpretation. Rob is building a case for exegesis and a case against isogesis here. He’s building a case for inductive reasoning, rather than deductive reasoning. Any student of hermeneutics would applaud this line of reasoning, if they didn’t stop with one sound bit and take it out of context.

“It is possible to make the Bible say whatever we want it to, isn’t it?” (p.44).

This statement reveals Rob’s opinion of the Bible – that it is unreliable because we can twist it to say what we want. Where Rob mortally fails is that we cannot make the Scriptures say whatever we want when we use a proper and consistent hermeneutic. This quotation of Rob’s only seeks to get the reader to have a lower view of Scripture; to trust it less.

“With God being so massive and awe-inspiring and full of truth, why is his book capable of so much confusion?” (p. 45).

Again, if you read on, you’ll see that Rob is building an argument FOR HERMENEUTICS, claiming that we can’t just believe what the scriptures say.. they have to first be interpreted. At face value, an isolated verse could mean several different things to different people. This continues with his “binding and loosing” theme.. the scriptures need to be approved or rejected in definition without our opinions poisoning the outcome.

“We sponsored a Doubt Night at our church a while back. People were encouraged to write down whatever questions or doubts they had about God and Jesus and the Bible and faith and church… But what was so powerful for those I spoke with was that they were free to voice what was deepest in their hearts and minds. Questions, doubts, struggles. It wasn’t the information that helped them – it was simply being in an environment in which they were free to voice what was inside” (pp. 29-30).

The telling sentence in this paragraph is when Rob says, “It wasn’t the information that helped them.” We must ask, “Why not?” I concede that a “doubt night” sounds like a great idea for a church to sponsor, and so I give kudos to Rob for thinking that up, but where he failed was in neglecting to open up the Scriptures to give the answers.

Wow, didn’t Rob say that there were answers? Yes he did! “it wasn’t the information that helped them…” You see, there was information, but that wasn’t the most helpful thing to these people. The Christian community is a scary place to a person who is wrestling with doubt. The moment you express it, you’ll have 2000 Roger Oaklands beating you over the head with their giant web-sites. Rob recognized that doubt was real, and that broke down some serious walls for people.

Rob routinely mocks those who believe the Bible for what it says. He wrote:

“Maybe that is who God is looking for – people who don’t just sit there and mindlessly accept whatever comes their way.” (p.30)

As Christians, we are to take Biblical truth by faith. This is not mindless.

This accusation jumps to a long-distant conclusion. People do accept things mindlessly. It’s unhealthy and leads to deception. If anything, this accused deceiver is challenging people to not be deceived.

“The idea that everybody else approaches the Bible with baggage and agendas and lenses and I don’t is the ultimate in arrogance. To think that I can just read the Bible without reading any of my own culture or background or issues into it and come out with a ‘pure’ or ‘exact’ meaning is not only untrue, but it leads to a very destructive reading of the Bible that robs it of its life and energy” (p. 54).

Though it is true that it is possible to read ones own culture and background into the text, many men spend years learning the original languages and studying the original cultures precisely so that they won’t read the Bible with their own lens superimposed on top of the text. With a proper hermeneutic, we allow the text to interpret itself, and we can understand the essentials without baggage and agendas and lenses.

The critic assumes that if we become Bible scholars who know the original language, that we will somehow be able to keep our stuff out of it. If this is true, why is it that so many Greek-genius Bible scholars disagree so drastically on so many parts of the Bible? Why? Because we humans have a hard time coming to a conclusion that conflicts with our paradigmatic thought.

The rest of the accusations from the “Low View of Scripture” section are not worth mentioning. A simple reading of the pages before and after the isolated quote will clarify the intent of the author. His challenge is not against the Word of God. His challenge is against the limitations of man. Mankind has a lot of stuff between his eyes and a clear, precise understanding of God and His Word. If we don’t realize that it’s possible for our understanding of the word to be flawed, we will continue on in a faith that is not as fruitful as it could be. Rob sets the stage with this section by exalting the limitless mysteries of God, and our endless challenge of learning and growing in it. Our critic totally missed Rob Bell’s point.

Wrong View of Truth:

All throughout Velvet Elvis, Rob portrays true Christianity as something dynamic, something that changes from generation to generation.

“The Christian faith tradition is filled with change and growth and transformation. Jesus took part in this process by calling people to rethink faith and the Bible and hope and love and everything else, and by inviting them into the endless process of working out how to live as God created us to live” (p. 11).

The Bible teaches just the opposite. The Bible teaches that true Christianity “was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). Please note the phrase “once delivered.” True biblical faith does not vary for each generation. Truth once delivered can not change. Yet Rob teaches that it does and has.

“And so these first Christians passed on the faith to the next generation who passed it on to the next generation who passed it on to the next generation until it got to… us. Here. Today. Those who follow Jesus and belong to his church. And now it is our turn. It is our turn to step up and take responsibility for who the church is going to be for a new generation. It is our turn to redefine and reshape and dream it all up again” (p. 164). Elvis on the Ed Sullivan Show: a review of Rob Bell’s Velvet Elvis – page 14 of 59

Rob teaches that each generation must “redefine and reshape and dream” Christianity anew. However, church doctrine is not re-shapeable. It is once delivered.

So, the critic assumes that the Christianity that was passed on from the Apostle John to the next generation stayed the same? It didn’t. Many of those who were in the next generation after John were Universalists. We quote Clement of Rome without a problem but we balk at guys like Rob Bell? Rob Bell doesn’t believe that everyone, even the Devil will ultimately be saved. Clement did. Why did Luther need to reshape Christianity for his generation? Because it was corrupt! If we don’t believe that our views of the faith can and do change from generation to generation, we are the ones who are propagating dangerous views.

“For many Christians, the current paintings are enough. The churches, the books, the language, the methods, the beliefs – there is nothing wrong with it. It works for them and meets their needs, and they gladly invite others to join them in it. I thank God for that. I celebrate those who have had their lives transformed in these settings.

But [Velvet Elvis] is for those who need a fresh take on Jesus and what it means to live the kind of life he teaches us to live. I’m part of a community, a movement of people who have been living, exploring, discussing, sharing, and experiencing new understandings of Christian faith” (p.14).

Rob’s error is this: we do not need “new understandings of Christian faith” but the old understanding.

Wrong. We need the “old understanding” (the one that’s right) to be our “new understanding”. –It’s obvious what Rob Bell means, but if you have predetermined that he’s a heretic, then you can’t give a half an ounce of credit to the author to discover the true intent of their words.

Rob brags about the fact that we ought to be free to find and embrace extra-biblical truth wherever we find it:

“So as a Christian, I am free to claim the good, the true, the holy, wherever and whenever I find it. I live with the understanding that truth is bigger than any religion and the world is God’s and everything in it” (p. 80).

If we follow Rob’s views out to their logical conclusion, then we ought to embrace truth found in Muslim scriptures. Why stop there? According to Rob, we ought to embrace truths found in Hindu Scriptures, and Mormon scriptures. Why not? Rob says “truth is bigger than any religion.”

Well, isn’t truth always truth? The context of this had to do with a Paul’s witness on Mars Hill. He claimed the truth that was there and used it as a place to launch his message. Recognizing an aspect of truth amongst a Muslim culture (he gave an example of something he saw in Turkey), does not affirm the Muslim religion. To say that Rob Bell is calling other religions true is a very ignorant and obviously bigoted conclusion. If anything, Rob is telling us how God has given us opportunities all over the world, and even in some strange places, to bridge a found truth, with the whole truth.

The rest of the accusations under this section fall under the same accusation of false reasoning and totally miss the point.

Heretical Errors:

The critic cited many quotes where Rob apparently denied the Trinity. He never denied it, he simply stated that the Christian faith existed before the doctrine was formulated. What if the doctrine were removed again? Would our faith fall apart over our understanding of this one thing? His argument is this: Our faith needs to be in God, and if our understanding of God were ever to be rocked, would we still be able to have a faith in God? His examples are definitely provocative, and, in my opinion, unwise. The example he used about Jesus possibly having a human father… that was stupid. It proved the point he was trying to make, but it intentionally provoked the Christian community to stop thinking and start building their piles of wood for the witch.

“Jesus at one point claimed to be ‘the way, the truth, and the life’. Jesus was not making claims about one religion being better than all other religions. That completely misses the point, the depth, and the truth” (p.21).

Please note that Rob failed to quote the entire verse. He significantly left out the part that says “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Rob is completely wrong when in his commentary on this verse

Whereas the critic sees this as a “belittling” of the exclusivity of Christ, I see it as an elevation. The point of comparison between Jesus and other religions is irrelevant. The point is: “..the way of Jesus is not about religion; It’s about reality. It’s about lining yourself up with how things are. Perhaps a better question than who’s right, is who’s living rightly?” (pg. 21)

Our critic said: “The Bible teaches that it is Jesus and His work alone that brings us to God, but Rob teaches that if we follow Jesus’ lifestyle, regardless of our external religion, then we are right with God.”

Rob never said anything that remotely communicated the “regardless of religion” idea… nor did he minimize anything to the simplicity of “lifestyle”. This is a severe jump from the author’s intent, to the demonizing accusation. I personally think the reasoning in this section is better left abandoned, because most people will find it more confusing than revealing. In spite of my opinion of its validity, it’s still not reflective of the critic’s conclusion.

Shocking. They took political propaganda from the empire and changed the words to make it about their Lord” (pp. 162-163).

The words of Acts 4:12 were divinely inspired, yet Rob reduces them to a mere parody of a Roman saying.

Nowhere will you find Rob Bell denying the divinely inspired word. He does however, make room for God to use this phrase, not only as an absolute truth, but also as a connection to the political propaganda of the day. If the message was provoking, it would have been heard and passed on by more people. Isn’t the Holy Spirit smart enough to do something like this with His inspiration? I think it’s possible. I won’t limit the Holy Spirit. I won’t say with confidence, that this verse (saying in that day) had a connection to the politics of Caesar, but I will admit that it’s possible.

Near the beginning of Velvet Elvis, Rob made this extraordinary claim:

“I am learning that my tradition includes the rabbis and reformers and revolutionaries and monks and nuns and pastors and writers and philosophers and artists and every person everywhere who has asked big questions of a big God” (p. 14).

Except for very few exceptions, “rabbis” do not embrace the biblical gospel, and neither do most “monks” and “nuns.” The great majority of monks and nuns throughout church history have fought against justification by faith alone. Rob either has an extremely naïve view of Church history, or else he believes that people can be a part of God’s Kingdom who do not believe the biblical gospel.

Yet another long distant assumption… Rob is confessing that his traditions and understandings of the faith were contributed to from many different sources. He isn’t saying anything about the doctrines of these different groups. He isn’t saying anything about their view of the biblical gospel. Why would he have to, since it had nothing to do with the point he was making?

This is typical finger-pointing witch hunt discernment: disregard the intent of the author, and interject your own intent in order to make the author’s words look incriminating. It’s low. Maybe this is an appropriate method of journalism for Katie Couric, but why is it so prominent in the church?

Wrong View of the State of Mankind:

“Over time when you purposefully try to live the way of Jesus, you start noticing something deeper going on. You begin realizing the reason this is the best way to live is that it is rooted in profound truths about how the world is. You find yourself living more and more in tune with ultimate reality. You are more and more in sync with how the universe is at its deepest levels” (p. 21).

The problem with this statement is that it overlooks the fact that nobody is good enough to live this way. Rob shows his very high view of man.

We don’ t see Rob Bell overlooking anything of the sort here. Look back at the quote.. Count, if you can, to the sixth word. What is it? -try- Try? Yes, try. That’s the best that we can do, because obviously, we aren’t good enough to live this way. In the process of trying.. you begin to realize some pretty awesome stuff. In the process of experiencing, first hand, the examples and the instructions of Jesus… you gain a better perspective.

The following is an example of how Rob has taken his preconceived high view of man and come up with a false interpretation of Scripture as a result.

“The first Christians know that Jesus is for everybody, but what do they do with all of these Jewish laws they follow? So they convene a council (yeshiva in Hebrew) to discuss it.

After hearing all sides of the issue, they decide to forbid (or should we say that they bind?) several things.

Here is why this is so important: They have to make decisions about what it means to be a Christian.

They actually do it. They gather together and make interpretations of the Bible regarding what it will look like for millions of people to be Christians” (p. 51).

Rob painted a picture of human beings coming up with rules and changing rules based on what seemed good to them, but this wasn’t so. These first Christians were divinely led by God’s Holy Spirit. It was God who was supernaturally forming His church and how they ought to act. Rob missed this completely.

Actually, Rob is going to make this clear, he is not missing this point, he is working up to it, and ultimately, he will be affirming the work of God in it. “at some point we have to have faith. Faith that God is capable of guiding people.” (pg. 68) -He says this in regards to the counsel that picked the 66 books of our Bible, but we’ve already covered this.

Regarding the Jewish Rabbis of Jesus’ day, Rob wrote:

“They believe the Torah was the way, the truth, and the life.

They believed the best way to live was to live how the Torah said to live” (p. 125).

And they were wrong.

Another case of disregarding the authors intent, and asking a non-related intent to stand in so that the words can more easily be criticized. In light of the entire scripture.. in light of Jesus.. yes, in hindsight they were wrong. But in that day, they were working within a different dispensation with different materials available to them.

Regarding the teaching that God will destroy the world at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, Rob wrote:

“Remember, when God made the world, he called it good. Why would God destroy something he thinks is good?” (p. 160).

Read on to the next page. He answers this question. Gee wiz! Context people! Hope you don’t interpret the Bible this way.

Who does Peter lose faith in?

Not Jesus; Jesus is doing fine.

Peter loses faith in himself.

Peter loses faith that he can do what his rabbi is doing.

If the rabbi calls you to be his disciple, then he believes you can actually be like him. As we read the stories of Jesus’ life with his talmidim, his disciples, what do we find frustrates him to no end? When his disciples lose faith in themselves” (pp. 133-134).

This is a shockingly man-centered interpretation of this passage. Rob is teaching that Peter’s problem was not that he lost faith in Jesus, but that he lost faith in Peter! This type of thinking is absent from a true Biblical understanding of man. In John 3:30, John the Baptist said, “[Jesus] must increase, but I must decrease.” This is the correct view.

Well guess what! John was a young man in the boat on this day. He hadn’t written the gospel of John yet. Peter missed this Biblical point because he so negligently lived before the Bible was written. Stupid Peter. - To have faith in Jesus is to understand that “He is able” is one thing. However, if we don’t have faith in our self to apply the faith in Him, I’m not sure how it would work. Peter continued to believe that Jesus was able, didn’t he? Didn’t Jesus tell the disciples that they would do greater things than Him? They had to have some kind of faith in themselves, otherwise there would be no place to apply their faith in the Holy Spirit. Again, this is a confusing and somewhat abstract point. I don’t think the value of this point positively outweighs the negative provocation that it creates for legalistic Christians. Abstract? Yes. But wrong? Honestly? Who can honestly believe in the power of Jesus to work through them, if they don’t first believe they are capable?

Rob even goes so far as to say that we should not consider ourselves sinners, and challenges where in the Bible we ought to see ourselves as sinners.

“I can’t find one place in the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible for that matter, where we are to identity ourselves first and foremost as sinners” (p. 139).

No, let’s read Rob’s words again.. “where we identify ourselves first and foremost as sinners.” Read on. He confesses that we sin. But he is elevating our identity in Christ over our identity as lowly sinners. First and foremost is the message of this statement! This statement assumes and concludes that WE DO IDENTIFY OURSELVES AS SINNERS… but, not first and foremost.

Wrong Gospel:

“I hoped that our community would continue to be a safe place for her to question and study and discuss and hear that God loves her exactly as she is” (pp. 89-90).

The Bible does not teach that God loves her “exactly as she is.” She’s studying Witchcraft. She presently is an enemy of God through her wicked works (Colossians 1:21).

Wow. I actually found the reasoning of this accusation heretical. What does John 3:16 say? “For God so loved the (good people who weren’t doing anything wrong in the) world… “ -Nope! Maybe this is why the critic’s view is so bent on Rob Bell. They themselves have a wrong gospel. The author assumed that Rob was claiming that this girl was saved, or that this girl had already possessed her inheritance in God. Such a thing was not being said whatsoever. This accusation was a huge jump too. It created an impression and hoped that we would embrace it before we actually decided to think. This kind of stuff happens on MSNBC.

Rob tells the story of some friends of his who asked him to officiate at their wedding ceremony. Please notice what these friends of his think of Jesus, and notice how Rob responded:

“Last year some friends asked me to be the pastor for their wedding ceremony. They had been together for a while and decided to make it official and throw a huge weekend party, and they invited me to be a part of it. They said they didn’t want any Jesus or God or Bible or religion to be talked about. But they did want me to make it really spiritual. The bride said it in her own great way, ‘Rob, do that thing you do. Make it really profound and spiritual!’…

So then I asked them if they thought it was a mistake that they had found each other. And they said, no, they believed they were meant to be together and it was no accident that they met and fell in love. I then asked them, ‘Do you think whatever it is that holds all this together is the same thing that has brought you two together?’ They said yes. Same thing…

Then they said they would call this glue, this force, ‘God’…

It [the wedding ceremony and party] ended up being one of the most sacred things I have ever seen or been a part of” (pp. 76-77).

Rob married two unsaved fornicators who outright told him not to mention Jesus, God, or the Bible. Then they created their own false god by calling the “glue” that holds the universe together “God.” That’s idolatry and blasphemy.

First off: Why can’t unsaved people get married? I think they should. It’s one step towards God’s design. I marry unsaved people. I won’t marry people who are un-equally yoked though. Next point: these unsaved people didn’t want a mention of a God that they didn’t believe in. Why is that a problem? It’s their wedding. They don’t believe in Jesus. Third point: Rob came to a compromise with them, and built for them a step, the beginning of a bridge towards an understanding of God. He didn’t get all Fundamental Legalist on them and demand that he be allowed to mention Jesus! It wasn’t Rob’s wedding. Why use the name of Jesus to instill more bitterness and widen the gap between the unbeliever and their Savior? I think… what he did, was very wise.

On pages 151-152 Rob tells the story of a stranger paying his bill for him at a restaurant. The waitress told him he had nothing to pay because it had already been paid.

“My acceptance of what [the waitress] said gave me a choice: to live like it was true or to create my own reality in which the bill was not paid. This is our invitation. To trust that we don’t owe anything. To trust that something is already true about us, something has already been done, something has been there all along.

To trust that grace pays the bill” (p. 152).

This illustration is not Biblical. Rob’s illustration paints a reality where everyone is already forgiven (universalism) and whether you believe it or not, you owe nothing.

This critic stands if you’re a Calvinist and believe in limited atonement. I, however, believe that Jesus died for the sins of all men… That it’s not God’s will that any should perish… That the Lamb’s book of life has everybody’s name in it, otherwise, there wouldn’t be names to blot out… that the Lamb of God was slain before the foundations of the world. Rob isn’t saying anything here about Universalism. He’s just saying, that the work that merits forgiveness, is already done.

Everybody’s sins on the cross with Jesus.

So this reality, this forgiveness, this reconciliation, is true for everybody. Paul insisted that when Jesus died on the cross, he was reconciling ‘all things, in heaven and on earth, to God’. All things, everywhere” (pp. 145-146).

Biblical “grace” is undeserved favor for those who repent and put their faith in Christ. “Grace” to Rob can be summed up as “unearned salvation because everyone is already saved to begin with.” You see this when Rob wrote, “We cannot earn what we have always had.”

The Bible teaches that only those who repent and put

Wrong! Grace is not reserved and available only to the saved. It’s available and waiting for everybody. That’s the point that Rob is making. The work is done and the forgiveness is available to everybody! That’s not universalism. That’s a basic part of the gospel message, (unless of course, you buy into limited atonement).

“The problem comes when salvation becomes all about me. Me being saved. Me having my sins forgiven. Me being reconciled to God. The Bible paints a much larger picture of salvation. It describes all of creation being restored. The author of Ephesians writes that all things will be brought together under Jesus.

Salvation is the entire universe being brought back into harmony with its maker” (p. 109).

This is universalism – that everyone gets saved.

Where does Rob say that everyone gets saved? When mankind fell into sin.. everything was affected.. even the world we live on.. the climate.. everything. God is going to fix it all. Not just me. He’s going to restore creation. But I’m still wondering where it says, “everyone is getting saved”. More impressionism journalism.

More troubling is Rob’s teaching that Christianity is good news even for those who don’t become Christians. (pg. 166)

The gospel isn’t the gospel (good news) to the unbeliever? The point Rob is making from pg. 166 is this: if we give our lives over to Jesus and begin to live for Him, our lives will become a blessing to the people around us. We become a better neighbor and that makes the gospel good news to the unbeliever. How is this troubling?

The critic’s focus here is on Rob’s communication of the gospel. First off, this book was written for Christians. As far as I can tell, most of them are already saved. Right? The point here, isn’t to define the gospel for believers. They get it already. The point is, to challenge the believer’s thinking about their faith… to confront the paradigmatic mindset.

Aberrant Theology:

Wrong View of Jesus’ Purpose:

The Bible teaches us that Jesus came to earth for the purpose of paying a sin debt to make people right with God. Rob, on the other hand, teaches that Jesus came to earth to show people of all faiths the right way to live, and to model the way we all ought to be.

In the following excerpt, please notice Rob’s personal reason for being a Christian:

I’ll put the excerpt that this reasoning is built upon in a moment, but first, let me take note of a couple things. This is a set up. This assumes that the reader is an idiot and will follow this reasoning without considering again, the intent or meaning of the author. Yes, Jesus came to pay the debt of our sin. No one denies that this is our Savior’s purpose. I’ve never seen Rob Bell deny it. But then, the critic states that Rob believes that Jesus came for another purpose, other than the debt of sin. Jesus came and provided for us many practical teachings and examples. Are we allowed to take note of His other benefits, even if they are not the primary? Here’s the excerpt.

“As a Christian, I am simply trying to orient myself around living a particular kind of way, the kind of way that Jesus taught is possible. And I think that the way of Jesus is the best possible way to live… I’m convinced being generous is a better way to live.

I’m convinced forgiving people and not carrying around bitterness is a better way to live.

I’m convinced having compassion is a better way to live.

I’m convinced pursuing peace is every situation is a better way to live.

I’m convinced listening to the wisdom of others is a better way to live.

I’m convinced being honest with people is a better way to live” (p. 20).

Rob is talking about a good way to live. The critic goes on to say that the Mormons and the JW’s also have these same attributes of clean living, and that this connection is somehow a problem. Guess what. We all wear shoes and comb our hair. Should I qualify, every time I put my shoes on, that I’m putting them on as a redeemed believer in Jesus, just in case someone doesn’t confuse me with a Mormon who also puts shoes on?

Rob isn’t saying that Jesus’ example, and our experience of it was His primary goal for coming. The critic made that part up.

“The presentation often begins with sin and the condition of human beings, separated from God and without hope in the world. God then came up with a way to fix the problem by sending Jesus, who came to the world to give us a way out of the mess we find ourselves in. So if we were to draw a continuum of the story of the Bible, Jesus essentially shows up late in the game” (p. 82).

First, please note that Rob attacks the Biblical teaching of the gospel. The truth is that the gospel does in fact begin with man in sin and separated from God, hopeless to redeem himself on his own. After Rob assailed this Biblical teaching, he wrote, “God then came up with a way to fix the problem.” But this is not correct biblically.

Rob did not attack “the Biblical teaching of the gospel. He did not say that the gospel begins with man in sin.. He did not say that “God then came up with a way to fix the problem…” He said: The presentation often begins… - This is a perception. Rob is taking note, that the gospel is presented and perceived this way. If you read on (imagine that, there’s more information), you’ll see that Rob is building a case. Jesus wasn’t an afterthought. God didn’t come up with something in the end. No way! This has been set in stone, established from the foundations of the world. Jesus, the Word was with God and is God! All things were made through Him. He is in and is behind all things. He is before all things, and in Him all things consist” (Col 1:17). Quoted: pg. 83.

For Rob, Jesus’ primary purpose was not to die a sacrificial death to redeem a fallen mankind, but His primary purpose was to demonstrate to mankind a better way to live. Please notice how Rob described Jesus’ purpose in the following excerpt:

“I’m part of this global, historic stream of people who believe that God has not left us alone but has been involved in human history from the beginning. People who believe that in Jesus, God came among us in a unique and powerful way, showing us a new kind of life. Giving each of us a new vision for our life together, for the world we live in” (p. 12).

When Rob said that Jesus came to “show us a new kind of life,” he demoted the Son of God from Savior of mankind to a mere social activist. The Bible teaches that Jesus primarily came to pay a sin debt.

More cheap journalism. The critic set the stage here by stating Jesus’ primary purpose again. By stating this point (which is a different topic all together, and not applicable to this excerpt), the critic is setting up the reader to have a false expectation. I’m being told that Rob is going to tell me Jesus’ primary purpose again. Does Rob do that? NO. Rob is continuing to express the benefit of believing in and living for Jesus. Rob wrote this book for Christians who are already saved. They don’t need to get saved again, so it’s not necessary to bring Jesus’ primary purpose into it again and again. We’re saved already. We walked through the door. Hooray for the door. Now, let’s take our eyes off of salvation for a minute and realize why we experienced it. It’s about a relationship with God. These are the people that this information is for. There’s no demotion here. The words of Rob Bell are being misinterpreted grossly, and then commentary is being made upon that false interpretation.

Wrong View of Heaven and Hell:

When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, and event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter – they are all hell on earth” (p. 148).

While I agree that what happens in Rwanda and many other places are horrific and worthy of our humanitarian efforts, they are nothing in comparison to the Biblical description of Hell. Jesus described Hell as an awful place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12).

If you read the context on page 148, you’ll see that Rob isn’t talking about Heaven and Hell. He’s talking about things we experience on earth that are looked at as being “hell”. He’s speaking of the perception that people have when they go through war and call it “hell”. This is contrasted with the call of the Christian to live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth. It has nothing to do with the eternal location of Heaven or Hell. The critic thinks that Rob is soft-pedaling on Hell and re-defining it. Not even close.

As a result of Rob’s mistaken understanding of “Heaven” and “Hell” being a state of mind here and now, he makes strange statements like the following:

“Heaven is full of forgiven people.

Hell is full of forgiven people.

Heaven is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for.

Hell is full of forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for.

The difference is how we choose to love, which story we choose to live in, which version of reality we trust” (p. 146).

When I first read that, it made no sense to me. How could Hell be full of “forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for?”

Notice something here. Rob Bell believes in a literal Hell where people go. There are so many people in Hell, that Rob says, it’s full. The author is speaking from a limited atonement standpoint again. I don’t buy limited atonement. I believe, (and Rob apparently does too), that the cross was sufficient to provide forgiveness for all mankind. I hate to think that His sacrifice was cheaper than that. I’ve always been taught that salvation is a gift. It’s just waiting for me to receive it. God has already forgiven me, but He’s not going to attribute that forgiveness to me until I receive His forgiveness by faith. How could Hell be full of “forgiven people God loves”? How could it not be? (unless again, you’re a Calvinist, in which case, you can see this your way and criticize Bell for being non-reformed).

Wrong View of Rabbinic Judaism:

I’m not even going to give this section any notice. Jesus spoke out against different teachers of The Law during His time. Jesus pointed out corruption amongst some of the Rabbis. Because of this, the critic has broad-brushed all Rabbis, of all time (even those before and after the 3 years of Jesus’ ministry), as being guilty of:

hypocrisy

saying they honor God, but in actuality their hearts were far from God

worshiping God in vain

teaching the commandments of men

laying aside the commandments of God

teaching tradition as equal to God’s commands

rejecting God’s commands

damning people to Hell through their false teachings.

Since all Rabbis fall under the above mentioned list, Rob’s discussion concerning their: methods, traditions and intelligence is all moot and inappropriate. The reasoning which stains this section is so ridiculous, I’m going to move directly to the next.

Wrong Hermeneutics:

I’m chuckling now, even before I get into this section. If the critic has any hermeneutic skills at all, this paper wouldn’t exist.

Regarding the physical world, Rob teaches:

“Central to reclaiming creation and being a resurrection community is the affirmation that when God made the world, God said it was ‘good’.

And it still is” (p. 170).

The first sentence is true. God did say the world was “good” after He made it. The second is completely false.

Again, the context (an hermeneutical principle by the way) shows us, that Rob is describing the things that are worthy of celebrating and experiencing in this world. There is good stuff here, and he is highlighting the beauty of creation. Is creation ugly? Does food taste bad? Is music painful? –Maybe for some. For me, there is enjoyment in this stuff, and the world is full of it… full of good stuff. Why is it bad to affirm this?

Regarding whether or not it is okay to question God, Rob said:

“What are some of Jesus’ final words? ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

Jesus. On the cross. Questioning God” (p. 31).

This surprised me that Rob came to this conclusion, since Rob focuses so much on Judaism. Rob should have known that Jesus was not “questioning God” but quoting Psalm 22:1,

This was a bad choice of an example, in my humble opinion. I’m sure that Rob recognizes that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. The point of this chapter wasn’t about Psalm 22. It’s about asking questions. The words of Jesus on the cross are written here for no other reason than them being a question. (he should have picked other questions, this one lends to confusion because it mis-directs) He emphasizes, that our questioning should come from a sense of awe and wonder, not from a place of disrespect. We should always be questioning, if we want to learn… if we want to grow.

Regarding the Ten Commandments, Rob wrote:

“The Ten Commandments are God teaching people how to discern, and how to live well in relationship between right and wrong with their creator” (p. 86).

This understanding of the purpose of the Ten Commandments is mistaken. When you consult the whole counsel of God, you see that the Law of Moses (the Ten Commandments) are not given to teach “people how to discern, and how to live well” but are quite the contrary given to show people that we don’t live well.

EXACTLY! Bell and the critic are saying the same thing. The critic is jumping to the punch, but they’re both on the same track. The 10 commandments do show us how to live well… etc. Ultimately, we will conclude that we can’t fulfill the requirements, but that’s not the point of Bell’s statement. I’m sure he isn’t denying it… there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of that. (deductive reasoning will lead you down the wrong trail more times than not)

Regarding the Creation account, Rob said:

“Is the greatest truth about Adam and Eve and the fruit that it happened, or that it happens? This story, one of the first in the Bible, is true for us because it is our story. We have all taken the fruit. We have all crossed boundaries. We have all made decisions to do things our way and then looked back and said to ourselves, What was I thinking? The fruit looked so great to Adam and Eve for those brief moments, but the consequences were with them for the rest of their lives. Their story is our story. We see ourselves in them. The story is true for us because it happened and because it happens. It is an accurate description of how life is. The reason the stories in the Bible have resonated with so many people over the years is that they have seen themselves in these stories” (pp. 58-59).

I’ve read this many times and I’m still not sure if Rob is denying the literal historical story of the Creation account of Genesis chapters one and two. It appears that Rob has chosen to allegorize the story.

He obviously believes that it happened. He calls it a “truth” in the first sentence. “It happened” is a truth and “it happens” is a truth. He used the account of creation to spring-board into the topic of bad choices and consequences.

Wrong Influences:

This section is ridiculous too. Every individual that Rob quotes and references isn’t an upstanding, saved fundamental. Some are not Christians. Some are doctrinally off. He’s not asking any of us to read their stuff and believe it. He’s giving small quotes and excerpts to illustrate or launch a point. Big Deal!

Bad Conclusions:

No. Bad assumptions.

Conclusion:

“I affirm the historic Christian faith, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more. I’m part of it, and I want to pass it on to the next generation. I believe that God created everything and that Jesus is Lord and that God has plans to restore everything” (p. 27).

Rob said this in the beginning of the book. If we took his word for it… if we believed him… we would read his comments differently.

Problem is… people don’t believe him. They didn’t believe him before they even touched the cover of their own personal copy of Velvet Elvis. They didn’t believe him the moment they absorbed the twists and turns of the so called “discernment” ministries. They put meaning into his words.. they were determined to.. they used their imagination and changed the context by creating a false expectation…

This paper is just an illustration. If Rob Bell is a heretic, then I have twisted his words and am believing a lie. If he’s not a heretic, then others have twisted his words and are believing a lie. When it all comes down to it. This is just a book. This isn’t scripture. This is one guy’s challenge.. one guy’s view.. one guy’s perspective. If by reading it, people are duped into becoming Universalists… it won’t be Bell’s book that brought the topic to their attention. It will be the comments of some watch-dog.

53 Responses to “Rob Bell is the devil?”

  1. Thank you my dear brother for this post.
    May God bless you and your ministry.
    .rb

  2. ahhh… there’s some problems… a got a double paste in there. This probably won’t be edited until Monday.

  3. Chad… Great stuff. You obviously put a lot of thought and work into this and it shows. Thanks!

    Rob… If that really was you, thanks for the talk on Forgiveness in San Diego. I really needed to hear that… And yes, i put like 6 names in the shopping cart.

    PEACE!

  4. Wow…that was excellent.
    In lieu of stealing it in it’s entirety I’ll link to it Monday.

  5. Thanks Chad! Someone needed to do that! I’ve read Velvet Elvis twice, and really dig it.

    The truth is, we find what we look for. So many of the authors who are held up high on a fundamentalist pedestal could be torn to shreds by the same shoddy journalism. I often think about some of the things that guys like CS Lewis said, and wonder if the only reason these same groups don’t attack him is because he’s already dead.

  6. orthodoxbritneyspears Says:

    Chad,

    I only read the title of your post, but so far you are right on the money. I will assume the rest of the post is as insightful and not read it for myself.

    I kid, I kid.

  7. Fixed the double paste and put the right quote in. The font seems to be smaller now, but I’ve tried to change it several times… -I give up. Here it is. Cut and paste it into Word and do what you want w/the font.

    Thanks for the input so far… even you Jesse. You’ll disagree with some of the things Rob says on the principle of Limited Atonement.. -Uneducated people like me don’t buy the L.A. doctrine though…

    The title is right on the money? It’s a question, not a statement. Do they teach basic grammar in seminary? :)

  8. Chad, excellent post. I did similar work re: Bell, Donald Miller, Scot McKnight and others after last year’s SPC. Much of what I did was move through the book “Faith Undone” in the manner in which you moved through this other person’s essay. I also did some listening and source checking on some of the speakers at the same conference. Apparently spinning does not just happen in politics.

    The serious and consistent dishonesty by brothers and sisters in the Lord in mis-representing facts, quotes, character and the like is staggering and shameful. The spiritual integrity that is being questioned (in most cases there isn’t actually a question but an accusation) of people like Bell is ironic as those accusing are sacrificing their own integrity and witness with their blatant dishonesty and lack of love.

    Thank you for treating this fairly and with spiritual maturity and integrity.

  9. Rob Bell is the pool table that was moved into the billiard hall in River City, IA. – (my home town btw)

  10. Chad — that’s hysterical! Now you’ve got trouble my friends…

  11. Thank you Chad! I hope many others read what you have written.

  12. Just passing by.Btw, your website have great content!

    _________________________________
    Making Money $150 An Hour

  13. It didn’t take me long into VE to find some phrasing that puts my defenses up. Page 022 The Spring called the Trinity.

    “… God is somehow present everywhere. People began to call this presence, this power of God, his “Spirit”. So there is God, and then there is God’s Spirit.”

    Following through the paragraph one comes away with the idea that the Spirit, the Oneness of God is as concocted as the term ‘Trinity’.

    Now I get the point he is trying to make, but you can not deny the fact that there are those who will run with statements like this. In particular considering current error being propagated by some leaders in the House Church movement.

    I agree the doctrine was developed and named later, but this treatment of it quickly set me on edge and had me cautious about what I was reading.

    I tend to agree there is carelessness in an attempt to build a point. I can see why someone would never get beyond 022 to get to page 027 and see that they jumped to an erroneous conclusion. For me I did get to page 027 and didn’t quickly toss this like I have other books.

    Overall though I really like Rob Bell’s attempts to step outside the box and take some risk to challenge the status quo in an attempt to get a hold of that which seems to have been lost in todays church culture. To me his style and presentation is refreshing. VE and his videos really provoke me to consider his points and challenge my own dogma and ideas. Too bad others are quick to judge and toss.

  14. My criticisms lie in this area exactly.
    Some of his examples were either -totally unnecessary, or down-right careless. Me missed bringing this message to a lot of people by using some examples and illustrations that provoked rebellion. Instead of being led on to a point that would encourage and edify the reader.. many readers were provoked into a knee-jerk reaction (and sometimes, the word jerk was prophetic to those knee-jerking) –

    I loved this book. It is his first book.. -there are probably lessons learned.

    I’m so not interested in his 2nd book.

    I’m 1/2 way through his 3rd book and am really struggling with it. It’s boring me stiff and he just got political (major turn off for me). -I still think Bell is brilliant.

  15. davidguzik Says:

    I haven’t read Velvet Elvis and I know very little of Rob Bell’s ministry – I’ve seen a couple of the Nooma videos and that’s it. Being out of the USA for the last six years is a big part of that. So I really don’t have anything to say about Bell, either for or against – but I do have some thoughts relevant to the idea of criticizing and analyzing an author.

    Reading through Chad’s defense of Bell made me wonder why Bell didn’t write more clearly. Of course anyone who is determined to misunderstand someone can do so no matter how clear they are; but I also believe that an author has some responsibility to make himself or herself clear.

    If it is true – as Chad wrote – that Bell likes to provoke, coupled with an attraction to ambiguity, that is a combination that invites misunderstanding. It is unfair for an author to have the attitude, “I’m going to be as provocative and ambiguous as I want to be, yet I don’t want to be misunderstood.” Being provocative and ambiguous may be his style, but it carries a price. It’s like the entertainer that does all kinds of things to shock the public and then is offended when the public is shocked.

    If a writer makes a statement and then later appears to oppose or contradict it, it isn’t necessarily my responsibility to give him the benefit of every doubt and virtually ignore his second statement and receive his first one. If he doesn’t adequately explain himself, I can fairly say, “He said A and now he says B. This seems like a contradiction or at best an inconsistency.” If he writes, “I’m going to make the case for A” and then doesn’t do it adequately, it is OK for someone to call him on that. We can’t just say, “He made the case because he said he would.” If the writer makes an essentially good point but is needlessly provocative or inflammatory in building his case, we then can hold him responsible for being so.

    I completely support the idea that critics need to be responsible, honest, and fair – and many are not, and it is fair to call them on that. That problem seems to be getting worse and not better. Yet we shouldn’t forget that writers also have a responsibility to make themselves clear and even to anticipate and answer potential misunderstandings.

    One more thing: I’m far less interested in the personal beliefs of an author or a speaker as I am in the beliefs they promote. A writer or speaker may state, “I believe in the Virgin Birth” or “I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.” But if he then says, “The Virgin Birth isn’t important” or “What is really important is that the risen Christ lives in our heart, not whether or not He bodily rose from the dead,” it is trouble. He may believe the truth for himself, but lead many others into denying it.

    I should leave it those of you who have read Bell to decide how much of this applies to him – having not read him, I really don’t know.

  16. Keep in mind David that power that ambiguity has – it stirs the pot.

    Zondervan could have pushed back but they are aware of this marketing phenomenon realizing that if passion is stirred on both sides the publicity will translate into sales for them and creating a cash cow from the loyal followers who will feel an emotional connection to the author as well as from those who don’t want to miss out. They’ll saturate the market until it drops off then move on to the next big thing.

    For the author (deliberate or not) it will accomplish its end to provoke discussion and challenge ideas. My hope is that VE as a first effort is enough of that that hence forth he will grow and speak more directly and frankly, but then again that defeats the “conversation” aspect of his style and moves into dogma.

    He stopped in here before I’d love to see him stop back and respond.

  17. davidguzik Says:

    Sure, Jim – I agree. There is some value in ambiguity; it just also has a price to it. I guess one could say that you sacrifice clarity for ambiguity. Each author (or speaker) has to figure out if the price is worth it.

  18. David Guzik,

    So with your line of reasoning…

    The Bible should never be ambiguous, should it?

    But it is (in some places), isn’t it?

    God should make Himself more clear, then.

  19. Pete I think that is really reading into what David was saying. He can speak for himself, but we are not talking revelation we talking about an author and publisher.

  20. I think you all are off topic. This isn’t about Bell or the way he writes. this is about how ridiculous and irresponsible some folks are when they criticize.

  21. Chad can you have one without the other? The responsibility for it flows both ways.

  22. Chad –
    Just reading your critique of Mark Edward Sohmer’s critique of Rob Bell’s Velvet Elvis is unfortunate and disheartening. For you to have to explain what Rob Bell is really saying is telling in itself. It tells me that Rob Bell is confused and doesn’t know what he believes himself. Cults are notorious for this kind of scholarship. Always changing, amending, finding and creating new revelation, uncovering new insights into the scripture, and yet, never coming to a solid, truthful understanding of God’s Word. I know first hand. I’ve been in a religious cult myself. I know how they say things and how they operate. They continually twist scripture in subtle ways by intentionally causing confusion in understanding established doctrine. They especially implore upon people’s feelings. They persuade people to empathize with their reasoning and feelings. Rob Bell is a prime example of this kind of scholarship and manipulation.

    One example: In Rob Bell’s nooma video “Dust”, he says things that are absolutely in error and blasphemous scripturally and which are not accepted hermeneutical translation of scripture, and yet he has the audacity to say that he “feels” that things just might be the way he thinks. That’s not scholarship – that’s arrogance!

    Furthermore, I think it’s very telling again that Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Seattle has said that Rob Bell, Brian MacClaren, Doug Pagitt & Tony Jones would never stand in his pulpit. Driscoll at one time was part of their greater fellowship – the Emergent Village.

    Recently statements from these men about sin, the virgin birth, and homosexuality have been challenged by traditional scholarly theologians. Their answers failed miserably well established truths of the faith. They are espousing “doctrines of men” which results in a relativistic liberal humanistic religion – “ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (II Tim. 3:7). In fact 2 Timothy chapter 3 speaks of the coming apostasy in the church.

    Chad – be careful, as well your associations, in dabbling in this. Think of those you lead also. For as scripture says – we know not when the Son of Man cometh – will He find any faithful?

    In “His” Grip, Terry D Harder
    Romans 8:26-39

  23. Steve Aspinall Says:

    “this is about how ridiculous and irresponsible some folks are when they criticize.”

    I’d say it says just as much about how ridiculous and irresponsible some folks are when they adopt the latest trendy theological nonsense simply because it has the appearance of having a dynamic effect (Satan can give that appearance) or because it seems fashionable (Satan can be fashionable) and in doing so fail to Biblically critique something which is clearly erroneous at best, heretical at worst.

    I’m not worried about throwing babies out with bathwater. Given that Satan is the root of false teaching, false doctrine, false prophecy and heresy, I frankly don’t want Satan anywhere near my bathwater, or my baby, at all. If criticising a heretic is somehow going to damage them, then where does that leave either of us? Nothing has changed. They were erroneous and dangerous before, and if they react badly to being isolated from the body to a place where they can do no damage and choose somehow to take exception to that, then frankly, their situation hasn’t changed… I haven’t caused them to stumble… I haven’t thrown their doctrine off base. They were already lost to heresy before, and in my experience once they’ve gotten into false teaching as a personal belief, then translated it into teaching and adopted it as their ministry, it will take nothing short of a disastrous catastrophe in their lives to bring them to repentance and see them set soundly on the right track. I say that deliberately, because in my view the teaching of heresy precludes the notion that they ever WERE on the right track. The Bible is very clear about rejecting false doctrine. So what would be different?

    It has been argued that these kind of people should be allowed the room to be heretical just in case they say something worthwhile, in the hope that somehow, somewhere down the line the sovereign God will teach them and get them into a place of sound theology. OK. Well, it works the other way too… Cut the heretics dead, and the sovereign God will teach them and get them into a place of sound theology. When we find out that an unqualified and untrained and unsound practitioner has been conducting medicine in a hospital we don’t say ‘well, he’s given some awful advice, and made some terrible decisions, and put a whole lot of people at risk, but he DID manage to apply a couple of band-aids well, and he managed to disinfect a couple of wounds… oh well… let him stick at it and he’ll eventually get better at it and be able to make sound judgements.’

    When it comes to leaders and their responsibility, the whole situation is different. Experiment with your own theology, by all means knock yourself out. Think critically, get spiritually high, chant mantras backward, do whatever you want to do. That’s your business. When someone takes it upon themselves in the body of Christ to be a leader and to indulge heresy, to promote deadly doctrines albeit subtle ones, that’s a different matter altogether. If you like, you can consider those ‘critics’ that you despise so much, those ‘Bereans’, as the Body of Christ’s immune system, which finds the invader, spots the counterfeit, and freezes it out of the body so it can do no harm. Cutting out a cancer sometimes involves damaging healthy flesh in order to prevent the spread of disease. So be it, when the greater good is served.

  24. (I’m gonna write the comment in Rob Bellesque style.. just for fun)

    Jesus did this parable thing where he talked about tares growing in amongst the wheat.

    Tares, weeds, things you can’t make bread with.

    When the wheat was young, and the tares were young, it was very difficult to distinguish between the two.

    Jesus said something absolutely contrary to logic. He said, “Let the tares remain until harvest time.”

    Why? Well, if we let guys like Dave Hunt, Roger Oakland and Lighthouse Trails go in there and pull them up… they will inevitably cause harm and damage to the wheat that is growing nearby. Churches will split. Young believers, who didn’t even know who the tare was, would be uprooted from the fellowship that God led them to. They would be shaken. Others would be partially uprooted.. but, they might live.. though stunted. (something like this happened in a church I know about recently)

    How was Jesus going to deal with this?

    On the day of harvest, (that’s judgment day for you and me), the tares would be bundled up and burned. The wheat, would all be gathered up and declared to be “good”.

    I don’t care much about Rob Bell, and I’m not interested in defending him. I do think he is a Christian. He is my brother in the Lord. I will spend eternity with him in Heaven.

    I do care about the ones who so carelessly rip up the tares. I care about the Christians who look on and abandon all form of discernment and cast off the responsibility of “testing the prophets” on those who so blatantly LIE to make their accusations stick. The rational of these accusations reflects the reasoning of:

    bigotry?

    discrimination?

    so many people obsessed with Rob Bell.

    It’s a popular thing to do.

    It’s trendy amongst the legalistic-fundie crowd.

    Trendy? Yes! Trendy.

    Jump on that band-wagon!

    It will sell you another book! It will secure another lucrative speaking engagement. The Christians will gobble it up! You’ll have them out there, ripping up tares by the hundreds!

    They’ll be frothing at the mouth all over the globe about something that has no bearing upon their lives or the ministry they are part of (like some churches in England).

  25. Steve,
    I recently read similar (almost identical) words from a guy with your same last name on a listserver that I’m part of.

    what a coincidence.

  26. Steve Aspinall Says:

    “what a coincidence.”

    Not remotely.

    As a long standing Calvary Chapel pastor, disgusted at what he was hearing and reading, some emails and ultimately a conversation in the office ensued, in which it was mentioned that some folks seem to have been flirting with this issue – and others – over, and over, and over, and over again without ever dealing with them, or getting over it, and in that environment some incredulity was expressed, some frustration voiced, and some thoughts discussed, and I was humbled to have been told by Pastor and elders alike that the position I would have taken and the comments that I had made in conversation with them were absolutely representative of their position.

    It seems some folks take ‘current events issues’ in the Calvaries and rush to air them like dirty laundry in questionable internet forums so that they can sew dissent, and gossip, and justify themselves spiritually by giving assent to their own authority and believing themselves to be somehow a new manifestation of theological Godliness never before seen on the planet, let alone in the Calvary Chapel movement, and others discuss them amongst the sound, Biblical leadership of a church in order to get input on them. I’ve no doubt that my amply expressive comments have been plagiarised or inspirational in some form, and you’ll at least have probably had the unusual benefit of the condensed version, something you’re not likely to see from me any time in the near future.

    “Jesus did this parable thing where he talked about tares growing in amongst the wheat.”

    Context doesn’t mean much then, as long as a pop-quote justifies a doctrinally spurious approach? Where did Jesus say ‘let heretics run around preaching heresy in the church, and say naught, lest people be upset that they got challenged.’ Why does a misinterpretation of this scripture tailored to the justification of doctrinal error not surprise me in this case?

    “Well, if we let guys like Dave Hunt, Roger Oakland and Lighthouse Trails go in there and pull them up… ”

    We who? You? Where is your authority established to challenge the challengers. If Dave Hunt can find a Biblical reason to ‘tear up’ these wolves in fleece, or those poisoning the water supply, then I want to hear it to be totally honest with you. I don’t care about selective misinterpretations of parables… I care about very specific instructions to be true to the Word, to measure all against it, to reject false doctrines and controversies and the leading of the ego on dangerous theological musings. If your interpretation of this parable is right then Jesus’ take on terminal cancer is ‘let it grow in your body, and cut it not out, lest you cut out some healthy cells, and at the end of your days the cancer shall be separated from the healthy tissue…’ Oh no… we know what happens… the cancer grows. And kills.

    We’re not talking about ‘all wheat and tares together’… we’re talking about the huge responsibility we take on when we declare ourselves fit to teach and lead others, and all that it entails, knowing full well that we can’t simply be hapless sheep learning leadership as we go along, just like we learn our doctrine ‘on the job’… this carries weight. It’s serious stuff. If I act in good faith to cut something out of the body of Christ because it is clearly Biblically unsound and obviously dangerous, then I’ll take the consequences for acting in zeal. God forbid, however, that I be the agent of Biblically-contradictory heresy which others take on board and are gullible or trusting enough to be taken in by.

    I’ll go with David Guzik on this one… any Bible teacher claiming authority has a responsibility to be clear enough in what they teach to make their position known as absolute, and not to be open to vague interpretations. If they can’t do that, then I have doubts about whether they actually know what they definately believe, and if they do but can’t help expressing themselves in vacuous pseudo-intellectual literary mysteries, then I wonder if they really have anything to say that is actually worth the paper on which it is published, or the recycled electrons in which it is conveyed via the internet.

    The minute their mysteriousness and the depth of their intellectual musings on theology become comparable in the mind of their disciples with the depth of the Bible and the authority of its apparent forty authors, then they ought to pull their books from the shelves, burn them, and retire from teaching ministry permanently.

    “Churches will split.”

    If that is the case, then it sounds like the foundations of those churches were worthless to begin with and splitting is the best thing they could do. If Dave Hunt’s apologetics are enough to have that effect, I wonder why those churches bothered associating with Biblical Christianity in the first place, because the foundations shouldn’t be so fragile as to depend so totally on the latest hot shot emergent church leader, or the latest work of Willow Creek fiction, or any other ‘man made’ theological pontification. That goes within and without Calvary Chapel. What would it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? What would it profit a church to have the appearance of legitimacy and be able to boast unity rooted in doctrinal compromise, and prove to have been deceived or deceiving?

    “Young believers, who didn’t even know who the tare was, would be uprooted from the fellowship that God led them to.”

    You assume that God leads ‘young believers’ to fellowships that teach heresy which get irrepairably damaged by sound Christian doctrinalists criticising them. I’ve not seen any evidence at all that the majority of Christendom are ‘led to their churches by God’, nor have I seen any evidence that all those churches are planted by God, doing God’s will, or are blessed by God. Satan can bless a church with numbers in attendance. Satan can lead people to follow false doctrines. Satan can cause young people to be enthusiastic about a false Christ. Where I see God at work I see NO contradiction with the Word, I see absolute fidelity to the Scripture, I see steadfast faithfulness to the fundamentals of doctrine, I see humility, I see believers shying away from leadership, spotlights, publishing deals, not striving for public attention and sycophancy. I’ve never seen God in the other rubbish. Just man, and Satan.

    “They would be shaken.”

    Then let the foundations of their faith be tested by storms. If they are the real deal, they will not be broken, they will not be lost. If they are not the real deal, then no man ever prevented them from knowing Christ for themselves, only they are responsible for their response, and in the scheme of things their eternal destination was always inevitable, having been decided when the final judgements divides the wheat from the chaff.

    “Others would be partially uprooted.. but, they might live.. though stunted. ”

    Let me think… they can be perturbed by the nasty Christians who won’t tolerate heresy, but they might live, and be stunted… or they can be allowed to endure heresy without correction, and risk following a false Christ, a false gospel, to a false faith and into a false hope… Well since they’re going to be at risk either way, then, I choose Biblical fidelity and fundamentalist steadfastness, because I trust God to work through that far more than I anticipate him ‘making the most’ of abomination and error.

    “I don’t care much about Rob Bell, and I’m not interested in defending him. I do think he is a Christian. He is my brother in the Lord. I will spend eternity with him in Heaven.”

    I have no opinion on this subject. It will be a sad indictment of any believer to have been the source of such contentiousness and to be associated with false teachings about a false Christ. I’ve not heard anything that convinces me that he isn’t just another ‘New Age Christ’ advocate, or that he is clearly, distinctly, soundly born again. If he is, I’m saddened at his lack of spiritual maturity and Biblical discernment which would be more appropriate to the role of a teacher, and am frankly bored by his quasi-intellectual musings on seemingly ethereal ‘universal’ spirituality. I don’t need the philosopher to tell me that the Bible might contain the great universal truth of all universal truths. I’d rather have someone who actually takes it seriously, and believes it from page to page, without equivocation and without deliberation or gnostic aside, teach me something, or encourage me in my own faith.

    “I do care about the ones who so carelessly rip up the tares.”

    You’re not going to get much traction on this subject. What you’re doing is exactly the same as those you’re criticising. They care about the flock not getting false teaching, so they criticise false teachers. You care about the flock not getting upset and disturbed by negative vibes by Biblical fundamentalists, so you criticise the Biblical fundamentalists who critique false teaching. Can you explain the difference to me, or do I have to spell ‘hypocrisy?’

    “I care about the Christians who look on and abandon all form of discernment and cast off the responsibility of “testing the prophets” on those who so blatantly LIE to make their accusations stick.”

    You’ll have to enlighten me on this one. Generally false teaching and erroneous doctrine are exposed by Scripture, and don’t require ‘lies’ in order to make ‘accusations stick.’ As for ‘testing the prophets’, who has prophecied and what are they prophecying, for what reason, and by what claimed inspiration? And with respect to ‘all forms of discernment’, forgive me, but I question whether you have the doctrinal authority to make that statement, since it would appear that your interpretation of ‘all forms of discernment’ is subjective, and based predominantly on whether that ‘discernment’ comes to the same conclusion, for the same reasons, that you do. Without supporting evidence, they would be justified in stating that ‘all forms of discernment’ known to them tell them to denounce heretical teachings and false doctrine, and that conversely those who dismiss and reject their warnings are themselves failing to display due diligent discernment commensurate with the role of the pastor/teacher/leader of men.

    “bigotry?

    discrimination?”

    This isn’t the United Nations and we’re not talking about the Bill of Human Rights. Try to stick with dealing with the matter Biblically. Assumptions about motives are all well and good, but they are assumptions, and you could well end up being as guilty of misrepresentation as you claim ‘they’ are. Do they have a Biblical case for objection? The issue of whether you want to turn Rob Bell into the devil, or indeed into a martyr is utterly irrelevent – its the kind of masking on the issue that obfuscates the central premise. Can a case be made which is personality-neutral? Do these kinds of teachings stand up to Biblical scrutiny without Rob Bell’s name attatched to them? The answer is ‘no’ – they’re old, they’ve challenged the church since it began, and they’re as spurious now as they were then. Rephrasing them and dressing them up in a neat multimedia presentation isn’t making them any more compelling, credible nor indeed healthy. Can a case be made against these teachings Biblically irrespective of who is teaching them? Absolutely. In that case the resistance to them should be twofold – we should be informing believers (and unbelievers) to disregard the doctrines, but additionally, in the age in which we’ve made the delivery of doctrine so ‘personality-locked’ and ‘personality-led’, if there is a teacher of false doctrine, we have to warn against that teacher. Seems sound and justifiable to me.

    “so many people obsessed with Rob Bell.

    It’s a popular thing to do.

    It’s trendy amongst the legalistic-fundie crowd.

    Trendy? Yes! Trendy.

    Jump on that band-wagon! ”

    Dear, oh dear… you read everything backwards, don’t you?

    Its ‘popular’ because it is contemporary. If Steve Aspinall stands up and preaches that Jesus was a woman, and a whole load of apologeticists start a crusade against me and my teaching, it isn’t because they just decided to be mean to me. It is because I decided to put my little old self on a big old stage and make dumb doctrinally unsound comments about a subject that is not open to the remotest hint of obtuse left-field interpretation, but can actually be studied and presented in order to show me as unequivocally wrong. Bottom line, if you don’t want to become the subject of a Biblically apologetical witch-hunt, don’t preach heretical statements, don’t dabble in occultified quasi-Christianity, don’t stand on a big platform and talk to lots of people about clearly controversial subjects, don’t be motivated and led by populistical accolades, and don’t, don’t, don’t think yourself important enough to write a book on how you reinvented the wheel to make it a more culturally relevant wheel. You’re just lining yourself up for trouble as soon as you say ‘this time-honoured tradition of spiritual and doctrinal fidelity is a bit old-hat, and we can do things in a new way… I’m the first one to think of this in two thousand years….’ I can already hear strains of ‘Another One Bites The Dust.’

    If heresy becomes popular, if false doctrine becomes ‘current events’, then so will the criticism of it. And that’s healthy. When a body no longer fights the infection of an inbound disease and simply accepts each new virus into the body to do what it will, that body is in a state of imminent terminal failure. We call it AIDS. When the infection enters the body, the mechanism by which the immune system fights the invader is by being able to tell the difference between healthy cells which can be expected to be present, and unhealthy cells which need to be repelled. It is imperitive that the body’s immune system work, and that work is done by cells, by a mechanism which DOES know the difference, and which is equipped with a role of protecting the other parts of the body, and being able to inform them that they are under attack by foreign organisms, by toxins, so that the immune response can trigger a biological and bio-chemical reaction throughout all parts of the whole to facilitate a response.

    “It will sell you another book! It will secure another lucrative speaking engagement. The Christians will gobble it up! You’ll have them out there, ripping up tares by the hundreds!”

    Oh, give me a break. Hypocrisy again. Change the phrase ‘You’ll have them out there, ripping up tares by the hundreds!’ to ‘You’ll have them flocking to your church’ or ‘You’ll become a famous teacher’ or ‘you’ll have them committed to a revisionist revolution in their churches’ and the comments are entirely arbitrary. Once again, cause and effect. There’s no criticism without something to criticise. If you don’t want books criticising heretical teaching, don’t write and promote books supporting heretical teaching.

    And again, nice exaggeration… if the ‘church’ is dependent on the happy ignorance of tares and wheat co-operatively gorging on heresy and false teaching in order to maintain the appearance of being ‘Christ-ian’, then the whole thing is a sham. If the Bible isn’t enough, then the *few* genuine believers in question have put themselves through sheer ignorance, and on tremendously dangerous, shaky ground, to make their faith dependent on the most unworthy deceivers and teachers of doctrinal falsehood. But, unfortunately, sometimes you’ve just got to trust that God will preserve the genuine believers and bring them through the upheaval of a moral and spiritual revival, and refine them in the process. There’s Biblical precedent for that. There is, however, no Biblical precedent for them sitting under the teaching of false doctrinalists and heretics, and coming out better for it.

    They have the responsibility for ‘enduring sound doctrine’, I don’t have the responsibility for making sure they’re not offended when I denounce unsound doctrine.

    “They’ll be frothing at the mouth all over the globe about something that has no bearing upon their lives or the ministry they are part of (like some churches in England).”

    I’m not sure what your comments about some churches in England are a reference to. You’ll have to clarify. But this little rant really demonstrates your heart. If you’re a pastor, I beg you to step down today. Resign yourself as unfit, and come back when you’ve repented. When it comes down to advocacy on behalf of Biblical heresies and controversies and false teachings, and then so viciously attacking with clear venom those who seek to defend the body of Christ from Biblical heresies and controversies and false teachings, all you demonstrate is how utterly at odds with the Word you are, and how totally out of step with the Holy Spirit that it appears you must be. In the light of these comments, I struggle to come to any other conclusion, much as I might like to.

    There’s all kinds of room for ‘benefit of the doubt’ and for ‘growing up’ or ‘maturing’ or ‘learning.’ But when you take responsibility for authority and leadership over others, there’s no place for this. Its either got to be right, or its going to be wrong.

  27. Terry Harder,

    With all due respect, you missed the point twice. You further enforced exactly the topic at hand with your closing statement, an almost verbatim stand taken by guys with “spiritual” tin foil hats.

    When any movement takes stands against writers in such a public format, and expects you (without actually saying so) to immediately clean house without the slightest degree of personal investigation, and acting only because people hold the gun of “– will He find any faithful?” to anyones head, there are serious problems. This is a failure to shepherd properly. A total failure. We do not minister out of fear.

    When pastors take the time to investigate things sheep are ingesting, they do their job. This is not “dabbling” in anything. This is plain old responsibility. The fact that some would even bother to read a book that has supposedly spun Historical Biblical Christianity into oblivion before condemning it is admirable, NOT dangerous.

    Irresponsibility is pastors ingesting coma-inducing doses of hate from self proclaimed watch dogs who have no regard for sheep, but rather books, and fame. LHT would not exist without someone to burn at the stake. This is not edification, it is not even protection, it is absurdity. Shame on the witch hunts! How far can they go?

    Are you aware of the fact that Chuck Smith has been labeled a heretic for years now for supposedly predicting the date for the return of Jesus?

    Will we burn him?

  28. Steve,
    Your post is so long. I won’t read it. Neither will anyone else.

  29. Reuben…
    you sound so smart. Intelligence is revealed in brevity.

  30. AMEN! to Steve Aspinall’s posts. I believe he’s hit the nail on the head!

  31. Wow, Steve,
    I scanned your comments.
    Wow.

    You have awesome typing skills.

  32. He validates the post Terry, you’re absolutely right. I’ll group him in.

    My boring little ol blog… getting all this attention.

    Did you watch the video of my daughter sledding? That’s way more interesting than this.

  33. Not smart enough, I had to look up brevity in the dictionary.

    No kidding!

  34. Steve Aspinall Says:

    “Steve,
    Your post is so long. I won’t read it. Neither will anyone else.”

    Ah the ‘long read’ issue again…

    Must explain your difficulty once again with being Biblical over being revisionistical.

    As always, a comment like this says far more about where you’re at, than it does about where I’m at.

    And that’s without the fact that the comment is clearly either false prophecy or ignorance.

  35. Steve Aspinall Says:

    “Irresponsibility is pastors ingesting coma-inducing doses of hate from self proclaimed watch dogs who have no regard for sheep, but rather books, and fame.”

    Is this materially worse than pastors tolerating saccharine-rich artificial gospels and quasi-spiritual intellectual musings for the self same purpose of rehashing the same old doctrinal error and repackaging it as modern relevant substitution for good old fashioned Biblical teaching, with the goal of selling books and gaining fame? Conservatism is inevitably less damaging than liberalism no matter how harsh it might seem to be. You will rarely kill a patient by thoroughly removing cancer, or by treating a dangerous virus. You will risk the patients life if you wait and see if the cancer or the virus might happen to coincidentally do the patient some good.

    Perhaps stepping the debate out of the ‘theoretical’ and into the current would alter the perspective. Narrow it down a little… when Dave Hunt produces an apologetic or a warning against false teaching in the church, when has he been wrong? Forget getting wrapped up in the endless drivel of ‘mode, manner, were they loving enough, are they totalitarians.’ How about plain and simple ‘are they right?’ Are they Biblical? Do the sources that they claim do damage actually do damage? And be specific… what damage do the apologeticists (and you can be specific about which ones you speak of) actually do? And furthermore, for the ‘damage’ that these apologeticists do in tackling the erroneous doctrines of the utterly irrelevant works that seem to be being defended here, how much good has their sentinel-ship done the body as a whole in rapidly informing the church of heresy and warning them against it?

    Who is going to do the work of the watchmen if they cease because you don’t like them?

    Is Chad?

    God forbid, it seems we’ll all be dying of a deadly disease by the time he finally concludes that heresy and false doctrine isn’t worth giving the benefit of the doubt, and that it doesn’t take years of Biblical analysis and maneuvering to discover that something is a false teaching.

    Do you deny that God may have raised up apologeticists to test everything against the Word? Or do we also think that God has ‘raised up’ these false teachers of ‘modern liberalism’ to teach false doctrine? Which would be more contradictory and less like God?

    I doubt that Elijah was a popular, easy going character, nor John the Baptist, nor even Paul. But their heart was filled with zeal for the Lord and for the adherence to HIS WORD and for that, whether they act out of an overzealous spirit and perhaps even get it wrong, for their motive, God has a very special place in his heart for them. Beware… I’m more inclined to believe that they are walking closely with the Lord and acting within his will than I am to believe that a ministry or individual that red flags not just theirs, but many believers sense of discernment is doing the same. Always err on the side of conservatism when it comes to maintaining sound doctrine.

    Or have the rules changed in the ‘modern world’ of ‘mass communication?’

  36. Steve Aspinall Says:

    “Are you aware of the fact that Chuck Smith has been labeled a heretic for years now for supposedly predicting the date for the return of Jesus?”

    Old and exaggerated argument outdated by the fact that the individual concerned recognised their error, repented of their inclination to make proclamations on irrelevant, albeit exciting diversions, and neither then, nor now, was such an idea a major focal point or defining moment in the nature of their ministry. The fact that PC was actually Biblically minded and theologically well grounded to begin with was a mitigating factor in the recovery from reckless, although notably harmless, proclamations.

    Are you saying that Pastor Chuck making the mistake of trying to calculate a ‘date’ for the return of Christ is the same as significant doctrinal error, heretical teaching and such. I mean, when you say that this proclamation has been labelled ‘heresy’, do you mean that the Bible identifies it as heresy, or that men who hate Chuck call him a heretic? The standards of the former I have regard for. The standard of the latter I have absolutely no interest in.

    I’d say that Chuck’s error, in doing what every other evangelical with an end times interest was doing at the time, and trying to do it more Biblically than the rest, is no more ‘heretical’ and equally arbitrary as a pastor allowing false teaching to be harboured in his congregation simply because the latest megachurch leaders and those who are doing well at manipulating a youth contingent into a dubious faith are doing it, except infinitely less harmful. The only people harmed by Chuck’s mistake were Chuck and those most closely associated with him, all of whom appear to have recovered nicely by dealing with the error, moving on from it, and staying even more Biblically orthodox. The people harmed by false teaching in the church and the mere tolerance of a false Christ are manifold, and the impact profound, perhaps not immediately visible, but eternally resounding.

  37. Steve, you said, “Who is going to do the work of the watchmen if they cease because you don’t like them?

    Is Chad?”

    Again, Chad did. You didn’t. I’m done reading CARM, LHT, Berean Call, because the witch hunts they perform are based on nothing like a good portion of the guys they slander. This is determined by simply finding out for yourself.

    You asked if we would tolerate such “saccharine-rich artificial gospels…”

    I have stood and worshiped at CC Charlottesville, and listened to almost all of Chad’s teachings through 2 books of the Bible. I would say that you have done what your witch hunts have done, accused, and called for things that have no material or factual justification. You asked a man to step down as a pastor here. You don’t even know that pastor.

    I have no idea what to say beyond that. Maybe you could take the witch hunt elsewhere.

  38. Chad – I have disagreed with you among others on SMP and I haven’t been asked to stop or threaten to be banned – I am feeling somewhat concerned about that. Am I falling under some bewitchment?

    Steve excellent job – in your quest for Biblical and Doctrinal purity you denied Paul’s own instructions to Timothy and Titus about how to speak to those who disagree or are in error. So much for Biblical Fidelity.

  39. II Tim 2:23 – “avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.”
    II Tim 2:24 – “servant of the Lord must not quarrel.”
    II Tim 2:25 – “in humility correcting… ”

    Based on these scriptures.. I apologize for participating in the quarrelsome disputes that Steve and Terry have invoked.

  40. Jim,
    You don’t make anyone out to be the enemy when they disagree with you.
    .. I think you understand, that we’re actually on the same team.

  41. Why is my doctrine in question?
    Has Steve listened to my teaching?

    No.

  42. Steve, don’t post here any more.

  43. I do understand Chad – that is kinda my round-about point.

    The schisms being created and advanced within the movement that I love have no chance to come into that ‘balance’ proclaimed because it is too busy creating enemies out of co-laborers called to their own tasks.

    This is what puzzles me, whether it is PDL, VE or CCD the attacks upon brothers over it I don’t get. It is always a disconcerting when a pastor will rag on and consider undiscerning one who likes VE, the NOOMA vids, PDL, etc. Yet, no one really cares if you like reading Augustine, C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Barclay, etc. These writers have just as much objectionable material and perhaps even more damaging because they are accepted and encouraged as ‘good’ to read.

    It is the vanity of the argument – I am all for calling something to question or making the danger known. Pastor Chuck recommended Barclay for commentary of greek however he warns and advises of the doctrine and theology. We are supposed to not need ‘police’ as we are to be policed by the Holy Spirit. Be into the word knowing what is true then we don’t have to be afraid or bothered by things we don’t agree with or that can be destructive. Which is why the emphasis on teaching the Word.

    Thing is we tend to trust in our own discernment and doubt anyone else’s. I am guilty of it. Seems in the end analysis I want that freedom for myself, but don’t want to give that freedom to others. I am in that now with a brother who is reading something I consider extremely dangerous, but I have to keep our relationship such that he can communicate to me what he is getting from the book and I can communicate to him my concerns or encouragement. When I first found out what he was reading I came down on him hard as being literally foolish and undiscerning to even think he could find value in reading this book and there is so many better things to read on the subject of intimacy with God – really I ended up becoming adversarial taking myself out of play to protect him should a question arise or he begins to stray. I should cautioned him and offered to talk about what he is getting from it and let the Holy Spirit have room to work. I guess I thought I would do a better job than the Holy Spirit – now I have a hurt brother, that I love and a damaged relationship. The guy loves the Word, he is in it.

    The exchange in this thread did what I didn’t expect I am really feeling convicted and really need to go to him and get it right.

  44. I would like to state an apology.
    1. I allowed myself to get a bit riled up by the content on this thread.
    2. When I became riled up, I stated an accusation that was not necessary.
    3. I have deleted the one post that had the accusation. It has stirred up more unnecessary accusations and has provoked a threat to turn me into Calvary Chapel Headquarters (which doesn’t exist).
    4. I will continue to block or delete the posts of those who are antagonistic.

    Jim.. I appreciate your words.

  45. orthodoxbritneyspears Says:

    Steve

    Are you serious with the question about “when has Dave been wrong”? How many people had to call him out over his piss poor scholarship in “What Love is This?” How many second and third generation sources did he use or quotes out of context? How many times did he have to be told that he was off with his historical assements and conclusions and needed to correct them?

    I found enough historical and factual errors in the first 6 chapters alone to write a 27 page letter to a friend who was promoting this drivel. Where were all you “watch dogs” then? Or is any stick good enough when people are on “that other” team? I have enough education to know when someone is making stuff up, and Dave does so quite often while waxing wise. And if men like you will defend him at all costs, it is no wonder he will lose his audience when he “cries wolf” again and again. He may be right on this issue or that one, but undiscerning supporters of the discerners removes their actual credibility. And if Dave is dealing with Rob Bell in the same manner he dealt with Calvin, Rob has my sympathy because I wonder if Dave can actually read a book.

  46. orthodoxbritneyspears Says:

    Steve wrote,
    “Old and exaggerated argument outdated by the fact that the individual concerned recognised their error,”

    Yeah, hard not to recognize the error when the year comes and goes. Missler too.

  47. orthodoxbritneyspears Says:

    Chuck also did use to have in the statement of faith that the trinity was made up of three “seperate” persons. It took some advising from Don Stewart to finally get it changed. But that language of seperate was clearly deemed heretical by the church through her councils and creeds throughout history. How exactly does Dave come to his conclusion about what constitutes heresy? Is he the ultimate authority on that issue?

  48. orthodoxbritneyspears Says:

    Chad,

    Ahh…Dont kick Steve off, I was just getting started….

  49. Well good morning brothers. Looks like I found the party. I don’t really care much for RB, I’ll probably never read one of his books. I have watched a few video clips and my opinion is that he is not the kind of guy I would want for a pastor. He comes off as an intellectual/trendy guy for sure, but that doesn’t carry much weight with me personally. We spend lots of time arguing about these prominent guys like somehow it makes us more relevant or plugged in to what is going on in the national scene. It ends up sounding like the “peanut gallery.”
    RB has zero impact on my life. I would rather talk about things that do.
    It always makes for heated discussions on blogs though, so maybe that’s why we do it. Vanity.

  50. I don’t care about RB either. RB is not the point of this post… he’s just an example that was used to highlight another point.

  51. Sorry Jesse, He’s mean.

  52. Nah the cowardly way out is not using your own name for your posts and not leaving a link back to your own blog or site.

  53. Sigh. This sort of reminds me of the arrogant hand that keeps taking a claw hammer to it’s own head, all the while laughing manically in victory. If the church cannot be Christ-like in its behavior towards itself, is it any wonder the world is such a mess?

Comments are closed.